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Analyse request
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ybalka_



Joined: 10 Oct 2004
Posts: 1538

PostPosted: Fri, 23-May-2014 19:29    Post subject: Reply with quote

hello there!!

I just wanted to know if any of you is willing to open my eyes regarding this routine?
Can anyone explain me how on earth could she have 8.9 in D? or make her complete sheet for that matter please??

I guess she makes the most of rhythmic steps, masteries and Risks because she's very limited in body difficulties.

Any help is welcome Love

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjvM38QjS-M
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*Kalinka*



Joined: 09 Apr 2009
Posts: 2180
Location: Italy

PostPosted: Wed, 4-Jun-2014 16:29    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not a judge, but I have tried to do it... I probably missed some elements, because I doubt her starting value is 8.2! Shocked

- 1st body element: ring turn --> 0.30 (it was probably supposed to be a 0.60 turn)
(I'm not sure about the kind of the apparatus element she was performing Confused)
- 0:10-0:18: dance sequence --> 0.30
- 2nd body element: back scale: I would not count it, because I don't think she performed 4 mills with the clubs. The value would have been 0.50.
- Mastery: cascade throw, re-throw, rotation. --> 0.20
- 3rd body element: turning stag with back bend --> 0.50
- 0:24-0:32: dance sequence --> 0.30
- 4th body element: double attitude turn --> 0.60
- Mastery: tapping (?) out of visual field, rotation --> 0.20
- Mastery: small throw of one club, out of visual field, rotation --> 0.20
- Risk: three rotations (0.30) + change of level + change of body rotation --> 0.50
- 0:49-0:54; 0:59-1:03: dance sequence --> 0.30
- Mastery: small throws of 2 clubs, without hands, rotation --> 0.20
- 5th body element: rotation + back scale balance --> 0.60
- 6th body element: side scale balance --> 0.50
- Risk: three rotations (0.30) + throw without hands + change of level (I think this bonus cannot be counted because she changes the level after having catched the apparatus) --> 0.40
- Front scale balance: it cannot be counted because of the drop. It would have been a 0.50 otherwise.
- 1:19-1:25: dance sequence. It cannot be counted because there aren't 8 seconds!
- 7th body element: turning stag with ring and back bend --> 0.60
- 8th body element: backward illusion. I would not count it, because I can't see a technical element (maybe she planned to perform a catch). The difficulty would have been worth 0.30.
- Risk: three rotations (0.30) + change of body rotation + change of body rotation --> 0.50

Total: 6.2, while she got 8.9 Shocked
Yeah, I'm definitely missing something! I hope someone will clarify! Surprised
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Cipelly



Joined: 12 Aug 2007
Posts: 859
Location: Velletri (Italy)

PostPosted: Sat, 7-Jun-2014 10:18    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have "corrected" on your message... I'm still not a judge.. Mr. Green

*Kalinka* wrote:

- 1st body element: ring turn --> 0.30 (it was probably supposed to be a 0.60 turn)
(I'm not sure about the kind of the apparatus element she was performing Confused) I think she performs this app. element: " Free rotations of 1 or 2 Clubs on the part of the body or on the floor"
- 0:10-0:18: dance sequence --> 0.30
- 2nd body element: back scale: I would not count it, because I don't think she performed 4 mills with the clubs. The value would have been 0.50. I've seen it at rallenty and there was 4 mills, so it count.
- Mastery: cascade throw, re-throw, rotation. --> 0.20
- 3rd body element: turning stag with back bend --> 0.50
- 0:24-0:32: dance sequence --> 0.30
- 4th body element: double attitude turn --> 0.60
- Mastery: tapping (?) out of visual field, rotation --> 0.20 For me this isn't a mastery because the rebound on the floor it's not an apparatus element and also it's not out of visual field
- Mastery: small throw of one club, out of visual field, rotation --> 0.20
- Risk: three rotations (0.30) + change of level + change of body rotation --> 0.50 + another change of level between the roll and the backward walkover + catch out of visual field, so the total value of this risk is 0.70
- 0:49-0:54; 0:59-1:03: dance sequence --> 0.30
- Mastery: small throws of 2 clubs, without hands, rotation --> 0.20
- 5th body element: rotation + back scale balance --> 0.60
- 6th body element: side scale balance --> 0.50
- Risk: three rotations (0.30) + throw without hands + change of level (I think this bonus cannot be counted because she changes the level after having catched the apparatus) --> 0.40 + change of body rotation, total value is 0.60. Change of level is valid also for the rotation soon after the catch, so it count.
- Front scale balance: it cannot be counted because of the drop. It would have been a 0.50 otherwise.
- 1:19-1:25: dance sequence. It cannot be counted because there aren't 8 seconds!
- 7th body element: turning stag with ring and back bend --> 0.60 It doesn't exist this leap, it can be with ring OR with back bend, and this is with ring 0.40
- 8th body element: backward illusion. I would not count it, because I can't see a technical element (maybe she planned to perform a catch). The difficulty would have been worth 0.30.
- Risk: three rotations (0.30) + change of body rotation + change of body rotation --> 0.50 +asymmetric throw +throws in cascade +throw whitout hands (the first club), so total value 0.80

Total: 6.2, while she got 8.9 Shocked
Yeah, I'm definitely missing something! I hope someone will clarify! Surprised
I arrived to a total of 7.0 for this excecution. While the declaring total could be 8.4 so we're still miss something.. maybe she declare 3 ring turn and 3 attitude turn so we can arrive at 9... maybe I can add the "rebound on the floor" mastery and a "sort of mastery" (it's not so original) after the panchè balance.. so we have 9.40..
Anyway I think that if we do an analysis such this (so cruel Twisted Evil ) also other gymnast should have lower scores, so maybe it's all proportionate... Mr. Green

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*Kalinka*



Joined: 09 Apr 2009
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PostPosted: Mon, 9-Jun-2014 7:39    Post subject: Reply with quote

*Kalinka* wrote:

- 1st body element: ring turn --> 0.30 (it was probably supposed to be a 0.60 turn)
(I'm not sure about the kind of the apparatus element she was performing Confused) I think she performs this app. element: " Free rotations of 1 or 2 Clubs on the part of the body or on the floor"

The clubs looks fixed to me... But the reason can be the quality of the video!

Quote:

- Mastery: tapping (?) out of visual field, rotation --> 0.20 For me this isn't a mastery because the rebound on the floor it's not an apparatus element and also it's not out of visual field

I thought the base could be "tapping", even if she taps one club on the floor and not on the other club... Otherwise it could be "handling"!
Quote:

- 7th body element: turning stag with ring and back bend --> 0.60 It doesn't exist this leap, it can be with ring OR with back bend, and this is with ring 0.40

Why? In the jumps/leaps section, the CoP says:
For the leaps which do not have rotation, ring or back bend in the base, more than 180° or ring +0.10, or back bend +0.20
The turning stag with ring and back bend is not among the listed leaps, but there is the turning stag with ring (the 0.40 element you wrote) and you can add the back bend, so it becomes a 0.60!
Quote:
- Risk: three rotations (0.30) + change of body rotation + change of body rotation --> 0.50 +asymmetric throw +throws in cascade +throw whitout hands (the first club), so total value 0.80

You are right about asymmetrical throw and without hands, but "cascade" is not a bonus criteria!

I agree about the 2nd body element and the other two risks! But the apparatus element during the penché is not "non-ordinary" at all! It is a simple small asymmetrical throw, it is very common! But it's strange she performs it, because she already performs the tapping on the floor, which could be enough to get the element counted! Neutral
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Cipelly



Joined: 12 Aug 2007
Posts: 859
Location: Velletri (Italy)

PostPosted: Mon, 9-Jun-2014 9:30    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The clubs looks fixed to me... But the reason can be the quality of the video!

Yes is for video quality and also for Yana, who's very fast!Try watching it at rallenty (in the lower right corner there are "options" where you can change video quality,but it's not the best, and the speed)
Quote:
I thought the base could be "tapping", even if she taps one club on the floor and not on the other club... Otherwise it could be "handling"!

Well, maybe! However for me it isn't out of visual field and above all it's not difficult, I did it! xD
Quote:

Why? In the jumps/leaps section, the CoP says:
For the leaps which do not have rotation, ring or back bend in the base, more than 180° or ring +0.10, or back bend +0.20
The turning stag with ring and back bend is not among the listed leaps, but there is the turning stag with ring (the 0.40 element you wrote) and you can add the back bend, so it becomes a 0.60!

I don't rimember where in this forum I read that you can't add all of those 2 criteria for the same leap! I also think that if you had to do a ring shape and you add also the back bent, you can't see anymore the ring shape! Can anyone confirm (or not) this?
Quote:
You are right about asymmetrical throw and without hands, but "cascade" is not a bonus criteria!

Yes it is! In the table 1.4.4 under the asymmetric throw of 2 clubs, mixed catch of rope/clubs, throw and/or catch under the leg during jump criteria, there is Clubs: throws in cascade or alternating.

Quote:
But the apparatus element during the penché is not "non-ordinary" at all! It is a simple small asymmetrical throw, it is very common! But it's strange she performs it, because she already performs the tapping on the floor, which could be enough to get the element counted! Neutral


I meant the "sort of mastery" AFTER the panchè, at 1.19/1.21. The apparatus element on the pancheè isn't asymmetric (they must be different in shape/amplitude AND work plan/direction), it's just a dissociated (ITA: da noi lo chiamiamo "dissociato"). I think she taps on the floor just to reach the shape and the right balance to go in relevè. But if she writes on the sheet "tapping" on the panchè balance you have to count it because she stay a reasonable time and did 2 taps on the floor when she was in relevè (and other 2 before,but they're irrelevant).

Hope someone will clarify on all dubts we have! Angel
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Artistry Fan



Joined: 14 Feb 2013
Posts: 656
Location: United States

PostPosted: Sat, 14-Jun-2014 23:39    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am also not a judge, but I will make a guess.
I counted anything that she may be considering as mastery, even if I personally do not see it as special.



In regards to the turning stag w/ ring (I listed this is double stag), I also do not see why she cannot claim back bend if she shows sufficient shape.. which she does.
I asked the same question to a few people and they were split.. some said no, others said there's nothing forbidding it in COP. I don't know haha

Anyway, I disagree with the 8.9 as well. Confused
It would be interesting to have our judges on the forum give their take!
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Tahnee
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PostPosted: Sun, 15-Jun-2014 0:33    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is possible to write with ring and backbend. Wink
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Artistry Fan



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PostPosted: Wed, 9-Jul-2014 3:19    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello everyone.. I did clubs analysis of Yana (made modifications from earlier post), Staniouta, and Rivkin at 2014 Euros. Would like to have your eyes on it for thoughts as I'm still trying to get better. Very Happy Blog link here. Aaaand below are just the analysis:

Yana

Staniouta

Rivkin


Also, rotation on flat is .10 less right? I remember being told this and calculating as such, but couldn't find the exact wording. I do, however, see it for balances. Could anyone clarify? If so, then my analysis is a bit off on penchee flats as I calculated it as .50 + .20.

Edit: Realized I can't really write Yana's last M since it would be counting rotation twice.. unless I am mistaken? Like... if you have a risk with 3 rotations and a rethrow without sight... you can't write: R3 + rethrow.. then [M] Throw - sight + rotation. Or can you? Watching
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Tahnee
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PostPosted: Fri, 11-Jul-2014 11:40    Post subject: Reply with quote

The gymnast can only perform a rotation on flat foot if it already in the table of difficulties (eg. penchee on flat foot, illusions etc).
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Artistry Fan



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PostPosted: Sat, 12-Jul-2014 0:16    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tahnee wrote:
The gymnast can only perform a rotation on flat foot if it already in the table of difficulties (eg. penchee on flat foot, illusions etc).


Tahnee - or anyone else! - can you clarify the following?

1. You are saying you can include penchee flat *only* if you are also performing penchee releve in the same routine?

2. Value of a 720 Penchee flat is -- . 70 (.50 + .20) OR .60 (.40 + .20)?

3. Change of level in Risk can only be claimed between rotations? i.e:

Simple throw standing, roll on floor = no change of level.
Standing, throw during walkover, which ends on knees = change of level.

I am trying to do analysis again and need a refresher. Mr. Green
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yannch



Joined: 02 Mar 2014
Posts: 17
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Sat, 12-Jul-2014 15:21    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

Artistry Fan wrote:


Tahnee - or anyone else! - can you clarify the following?

1. You are saying you can include penchee flat *only* if you are also performing penchee releve in the same routine?


No, flat foot rotations are only valid if they are "as-is" in the code. you cannot take a pivot rotation and perform it on flat foot.

It's not like the balances where you can perform it on flat foot and substract 0.10

The valid flat foot rotations are depicted on page 20 of the Cop, lines #6 (illusions front, side, or backwards, spiral turn with full body wave, penche) and line #7 (rotations on various parts of the body)

Artistry Fan wrote:

2. Value of a 720 Penchee flat is -- . 70 (.50 + .20) OR .60 (.40 + .20)?


0.60 ( 0.40 + 0.20 )

Artistry Fan wrote:

3. Change of level in Risk can only be claimed between rotations? i.e:

Simple throw standing, roll on floor = no change of level.
Standing, throw during walkover, which ends on knees = change of level.


In my opinion, a change of level is valid between two rotations...
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PostPosted: Sat, 12-Jul-2014 17:00    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you yannch! Now I am starting to think I have an old COP. I remember that rule but couldn't find it anywhere, but my friend was saying "It's right there!" This is what my rotations page looks like: http://imgur.com/j4HW98f

If you are still there, I have a question regarding masteries during Risk. Can you claim [rotation] criteria for a Mastery, when you are also using that same roll in the Risk calculation? I assume you cannot do this, as you'd be counting it twice.
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yannch



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PostPosted: Sat, 12-Jul-2014 18:33    Post subject: Reply with quote

Artistry Fan wrote:
If you are still there, I have a question regarding masteries during Risk. Can you claim [rotation] criteria for a Mastery, when you are also using that same roll in the Risk calculation? I assume you cannot do this, as you'd be counting it twice.


Masteries during Risk ???

Masteries can be performed during dance steps and body movement diffs, but in my opinion not during risks... Have you got an example ?
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PostPosted: Sat, 12-Jul-2014 19:29    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yannch.. I think I am overthinking. Originally, I had some more questions here, but I think I have them figured out. Someone had asked me to breakdown Staniouta's routines at 2014 Euros, so I thought I would share my attempt for anyone interested: http://imgur.com/a/MKrus#0

Would be great if someone has the time to tell me what mistakes I have. Wink

Edit - question:
Someone had me thinking about change of axis criteria. In Staniouta's first ball risk, she does a chainee, forward roll, then cartwheel. What axis does the cartwheel count as?
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Cipelly



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PostPosted: Sun, 3-Aug-2014 10:10    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cathweels and walkovers have same axis of rolls.. Wink
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